Success doesn’t come to those who wait—it comes to those who take it. For years, you’ve been told to be humble, play nice, and wait your turn. Jenny Wood says that’s exactly why so many talented people stay stuck. As a former Google executive turned author of Wild Courage: Go After What You Want and Get It, she’s here to expose the real traits that drive success—ones that might make you uncomfortable.
Listen to the episode:
Episode at a Glance: Wild Courage
Radical Candor Podcast Resources: Wild Courage
- Wild Courage by Jenny Wood
- The Story of “How About Never” | The New Yorker
- Newsletter | Jenny Wood
- The Wild Courage We All Need to Dig Deeper
The TLDR Radical Candor Podcast Transcript
[00:00:00] Kim Scott: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Radical Candor podcast. I’m Kim Scott.
[00:00:07] Amy Sandler: I’m Amy Sandler. Today, we are so excited to welcome Jenny Wood to the podcast. Jenny’s going to talk about her new book, Wild Courage: Go After What You Want and Get It. Coming out March 25, 2025. Jenny spent eighteen years at Google rising from an entry level position to an executive role. And most recently, Jenny ran a large operations team that helped drive billions, that’s with a B, of advertising revenue per year. Jenny also created one of Google’s largest career development plans, which was really, really popular. And she is now a speaker and author who is aiming to challenge conventional thinking about professional advancement. We are so excited to hear more about that. So welcome Jenny.
[00:00:56] Jenny Wood: It’s so great to be here, Amy and Kim. Howdy.
[00:01:00] Kim Scott: We are thrilled.
[00:01:02] Amy Sandler: Absolutely thrilled. And one of the things, Jenny, that you do is that, that we find really interesting, because I think Kim prides herself on being a rebel, is that you make an argument that the traits you need to get ahead are the exact opposite of what you’ve been told. So what are these? Tell us everything.
[00:01:22] Jenny Wood: All right, so these nine traits, uh, will raise eyebrows. Kim, I know they raised yours when we first talked about this.
[00:01:29] Kim Scott: Yes, in fact, I gave you some feedback.
[00:01:31] Jenny Wood: You did.
[00:01:31] Kim Scott: And you pushed back on the feedback. And so one of my questions is, first of all, thank you for pushing back on the feedback. Because when you get it, it’s not always right. And did I make it hard or easy to push back? And what could I have done to make it easier?
[00:01:47] Jenny Wood: Okay, well this is just fascinating right here because I think I’ve, my perception of that feedback is that I took it in and that it totally made the book better. So, so what an interesting example of different perceptions of giving and receiving feedback, right?
[00:02:03] Kim Scott: Yes. Well, it all worked.
[00:02:05] Jenny Wood: It all worked then.
[00:02:07] Kim Scott: All right. So talk about the nine traits.
[00:02:08] Jenny Wood: So, yeah. And then let’s dig into the feedback you gave and my interpretation of me taking it in and your interpretation of me pushing back. So the nine traits that raise eyebrows are weird, selfish, shameless, obsessed, nosy, manipulative, that’s a spicy one, brutal, reckless, and bossy. And these words can create the bars of an invisible cage that keep you small, that keep you quiet, that keep you following instead of leading. But I find that more people need to dial these traits up just a little bit as opposed to pull back on them. And so the feedback that I recall you giving me is Jenny, you’ve got to be careful to not take these too far. So perhaps you need to position this as, you know, the right side of shameless.
[00:02:56] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:02:56] Jenny Wood: A little bit manipulative. So, I thought I took that.
[00:03:00] Kim Scott: You did. No, you did.
[00:03:01] Jenny Wood: But in terms of the way, unless you’re talking about the intro feedback from the book. This feedback I’m talking about is two years ago, but there was also feedback you gave me on the intro.
[00:03:07] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:03:07] Jenny Wood: To the book. I very much appreciated. I’m so curious to hear what you have to say.
[00:03:12] Kim Scott: No, I think I suggested different words and you convinced me you had the exact right words. Uh, you were right and I was wrong. Uh.
[00:03:21] Jenny Wood: So were you suggesting softening them? Because that’s the biggest risk of this book. I mean, talking about reckless, you know,
[00:03:26] Kim Scott: I don’t, now I don’t remember what I said. But I think manipulative, I was suggesting a different word for that and you convinced me that it was the right word.
[00:03:34] Jenny Wood: That’s the hardest one for sure.
[00:03:35] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:03:36] Jenny Wood: But to be manipulative is the courage to build lasting relationships, to build influence through empathy. Because whether you’re selling a product or an idea or frankly yourself, the ability to win friends and allies and supporters is all about mutual benefit. And, essentially you have to figure out people want and get it for them. And that’s the flavor of manipulative that I want to encourage people to tap into more, not manipulative with the intention to harm or um, you know, or trick or lie or anything like that.
[00:04:05] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. I think that I was viewing manipulative in a zero sum world. And you were viewing manipulative in a, if we do this, we’ll make the pie bigger for both of us kind of world.
[00:04:16] Jenny Wood: Yeah. And just being comfortable using your influence and using your power. Because if you don’t, then it’s just left to the people to use it who actually are manipulative in the bad way.
[00:04:26] Kim Scott: Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. All right, so let’s talk about one of my favorite things that you say, you’ve got to take calculated risks and are on the side of action and you have a great story about this. So, why don’t you tell the subway story?
[00:04:43] Jenny Wood: Yeah. It’s 2011, and I’m riding the subway home from work. And about twenty feet away from me stands this really good looking guy, like, gorgeous blue eyes, thick wavy hair, and even though I want to approach him, something holds me back. What if he’s a convicted felon, right? What if he’s married? What if a hundred people stare at me while I make a fun of myself on this, you know, packed train. So, I sit there and I do nothing while the train passes stop after stop after stop, and frankly, as I let life pass me by. But still, something, uh, makes me just, I’m still really taken, taken by him.
[00:05:24] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:05:24] Jenny Wood: So I make a deal with the universe and I say, if he gets off at my stop, then maybe I’ll try to strike up a conversation with him, and if not, then that’s the universe telling me it wasn’t meant to be. So, my stop was 72nd Street in New York. He gets off at 59th street. And I was like, gonna, the doors were about to close. And then all of a sudden this wave of, I swear, like this wave of wild courage washes over me and it practically pushes me out of my subway seat and pushes me off the train as I like slide,
[00:05:55] Kim Scott: So you got off at his stop.
[00:05:56] Jenny Wood: I got off at his stop.
[00:05:57] Kim Scott: You told the universe what you wanted. You didn’t let it tell you. I love that.
[00:06:02] Jenny Wood: Exactly. So I catch up with him as he’s exiting the station at Columbus Circle. Tap him on the shoulder. I say, excuse me, I’m sorry to bother you. You’re wearing gloves so I can’t tell if you’re wearing a wedding ring. But in the event that you’re not married, you were on my subway and I think you’re cute. Any chance I could give you my business card?
[00:06:22] Kim Scott: That is wild. That is some wild courage right there.
[00:06:25] Amy Sandler: I am so curious. Had you ever done anything like this before as part of wild courage that it’s like the first time or have you sort of build the muscle of wild courage?
[00:06:34] Jenny Wood: I built small muscle. I did like, you know, two pound reps, but this felt like, uh, right.
[00:06:42] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:06:42] Jenny Wood: Three hundred, Kim. Exactly. Um, because I lived in such a left brain world, I studied economics, uh, in college. I ran an operations team at Google that, like, interfaced with engineering. I kept spreadsheets for everything. I, no joke, kept a spreadsheet for all of my upcoming first dates. Okay? Name, height, what we talked about in our first conversation. You know, uh, is he funny? Scale of one through five. Like, I, no, no pressure gentlemen, right? So did I do stuff like that? A little bit in that I was always confident as a kid. I was always, you know, excited to win the magazine sales competition and go door to door and ask people for magazine sales. But like, I was also very analytical, very pro con list.
[00:07:27] So in terms of the, like going with your gut, that was the recklessness. The moment of wild courage, the erring on the side of action. You know, thinking fast and fearless, if you’re on the fence, do it. Like, that was something that I always really struggled with, but in that moment, wild courage became a habit for me because it taught me like, no, when you think with your gut and when you tap into your right brain capabilities then, you know, incredible things can happen. Serendipity isn’t bound, it’s made. It’s made. And I made my own serendipity that day.
[00:07:55] Kim Scott: And you went on to marry this man.
[00:07:57] Jenny Wood: Oh, yeah. Sorry. Spoiler alert. Important detail. He called the next day. We went on a date a week later. Three years later, we got married.
[00:08:07] Amy Sandler: Did you have a spreadsheet?
[00:08:09] Jenny Wood: No. And at that point, I dropped the spreadsheet.
[00:08:10] Amy Sandler: You threw the spreadsheet out.
[00:08:12] Jenny Wood: And here’s the thing about the spreadsheet, right? About like, when you get reckless, a world of possibilities opens up for you. Because, he’s five, John is five years younger than I am. Nobody in my spreadsheet was five years younger. One year younger, same age, ten years older. Sure. Like, societal norms. But, just by going with my gut that day, it’s like, this whole world opened up that I never thought would be possible because I’m living in this box of these defined characteristics and this spreadsheet that I keep meticulous track of.
[00:08:41] Kim Scott: And it’s so interesting. I mean, one of the things I love about this story and, uh, one of the things I love about your title is go after what you want and get it. And you knew you wanted, that’s all, actually figuring out what you want may be harder than going out and get it. Like, what was it about him that attracted, he just see, like, it’s interesting to think what it is that makes you know.
[00:09:08] Jenny Wood: Yeah, and also, recognizing that you don’t know, but if you take enough swings, then one might.
[00:09:14] Kim Scott: But you wanted it.
[00:09:15] Jenny Wood: I definitely wanted it. Well, first of all, I really wanted to get married. Like, I had just turned thirty. Which made John twenty-five at the time. He had just moved to New York, had no interest in, like, getting a lot, you know.
[00:09:25] Kim Scott: Getting married.
[00:09:26] Jenny Wood: Getting married, yeah, basically. But, I mean, so, A, he’s attractive, and that was, you know, like, that was what started it. So I hate to sound very superficial, but like.
[00:09:37] Kim Scott: There’s nothing wrong with that. Like, sometimes you really like somebody’s looks, and sometimes you really don’t.
[00:09:44] Jenny Wood: Yeah.
[00:09:45] Kim Scott: And, uh, it’s okay to pay attention to that.
[00:09:48] Jenny Wood: Yeah, and that’s the thing about like online dating versus this person I happen to see across the subway is like, I knew exactly what it looked like, but you also have a vibe. He gave off a vibe. He gave off a vibe of thoughtfulness and confidence. You can give off a vibe of confidence for sure, he did. Um, he gave off a vibe of kindness and seemed like someone who would be interesting. I remembered his pants were too short, so I judged him a little bit for that, but you know, we can get over that.
[00:10:16] Amy Sandler: Jenny, I’m curious when you were on the subway and you are getting to your stop and you made the agreement with the universe. You also actually said about the wedding ring that, had you already thought of the line, like what was actually happening to you? I don’t know how many stops we had or how much time before 59th because you thought you had till 72nd. So what was actually going through your mind? Can you remember of how much planning or did you just leave it all up to whatever you wanted to say in the moment?
[00:10:43] Jenny Wood: Well, that’s the part where like I had, it was totally unplanned, Amy. The whole thing was unplanned. Again, not, which is not like me. I am very operational. I’m very methodical. And that’s what made it very different that day, and unlike anything I’d ever done. But no, when I said, you’re wearing gloves, so I can’t tell if you’re wearing a wedding ring, that was not,
[00:11:03] Kim Scott: That just popped out of your mouth.
[00:11:06] Amy Sandler: You’re like, who said that?
[00:11:07] Jenny Wood: That would never, like, what a terrible opening line.
[00:11:11] Kim Scott: It’s awesome. I love that opening line. Like, you’re basically, you’re saying, I am not an asshole.
[00:11:16] Jenny Wood: That’s exactly right, Kim. I was trying to say, like, I don’t mean to be disrespectful if you are unavailable. And I guess because I had just recently turned thirty, I did look for wedding rings because I wasn’t twenty-two. So like half the population that I was interested in was married at that point. So it was pure, this is my left brain thinking. It was very logical, very practical. And it was also practical, like, you are wearing gloves, so you are covering the data that I need to make an informed decision about whether this is a respectful thing to ask. But it just all kind of came out in a way that is, like, absurd. Because it just sounds so intense.
[00:11:52] Kim Scott: I love that.
[00:11:53] Jenny Wood: Obviously already an intense move to start with.
[00:11:55] Kim Scott: It all, and it all, and you know what? Like if someone, if he couldn’t handle that level of intensity, he was not the right guy for you.
[00:12:02] Jenny Wood: Well, I contrast him with this other guy, Brian, that I dated when I was working at Harvard Business School. I was doing research there, he was a student. And like my flavor, this is the weird trait is, you know, weird is the courage to stand out and be authentic. Because within your so called weirdness lie your greatest strengths. So I say hone every ounce of weirdness you’ve got, but Brian did not appreciate my flavor of weird. I’m like, I mentioned Amy, I am bold. I am outspoken. I dance down the sidewalk, like fake tap dancing to acapella show tunes on my headphones. And Brian wanted someone who was demure, quiet, and a wallflower. And literally said to me once, I want to be with someone who’s gorgeous, but she doesn’t think she is. And that’s just never gonna be me. So, at minimum, when I chased John off the subway, I was like, well, we’re starting this relationship on equal footing. Like, you, like, WYSIWYG.
[00:12:56] Kim Scott: You know what you’re getting.
[00:12:57] Jenny Wood: As opposed to Brian, who, like, I would never be able to fit my square peg into a round hole with him, even though I tried for nearly six years.
[00:13:04] Kim Scott: Yeah. And do you think that working at Google gave you some of that wild courage?
[00:13:09] Jenny Wood: Yes.
[00:13:10] Kim Scott: So, I want to move on to other stuff.
[00:13:12] Jenny Wood: Yeah, cool.
[00:13:12] Kim Scott: Because I met my husband thanks to some advice I got at Google, actually. I don’t know if I’ve ever told you that story.
[00:13:18] Jenny Wood: Yeah, tell me, what was the advice?
[00:13:19] Kim Scott: Um, so, Hal Varian, who was the chief statistician, I mean, he knew data better than just about anyone on the planet, explained to me that when women date, they, when heterosexual women date, I should say, they disadvantage themselves ten to one because they don’t ask men out. They wait to see what offers they get. And so a man will look at a thousand women and choose ten of them and a woman will get ten offers and choose from among those ten. Um, Amy, you can maybe, how does this work in, uh,
[00:13:56] Amy Sandler: It’s complicated and it’s been a while. So I think my data is out of date.
[00:14:01] Kim Scott: Okay. Anyway, this is how it works.
[00:14:03] Amy Sandler: But maybe we’ll have a followup conversation if the audience would like one.
[00:14:07] Kim Scott: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, that’s a big difference, like looking at ten people versus looking at a thousand. You’re going to make a better decision if you look at a thousand. And uh, and so I went and looked at every single Match.com profile of every man who lived in a five mile radius of my house. And luckily, my husband, now husband, lied about where he lived.
[00:14:36] Jenny Wood: Love it.
[00:14:37] Amy Sandler: Wait, I don’t think I ever knew that. So, why did he lie?
[00:14:42] Kim Scott: Well, he was temporary living somewhere.
[00:14:45] Amy Sandler: Oh. Okay.
[00:14:45] Kim Scott: He was going to come back to Palo Alto. Uh, and he was living in kind of an oddball place. So, he cleverly lied, but he was reading a great book. I chose his profile. Um, because he loved this book, Atonement, um, which is one of the great books. Or maybe it was Enduring Love. It was something by Ian McEwan, I should know. Uh, but anyway, that was why I chose him. And also because he seemed, I realized as I was doing this, um, looking at a thousand people, I realized that I had my criteria wrong. I used to say I want a man who is smart, funny, and decent. And I realized it needed to be decent, funny, and smart. Uh, and so anyway, that was my, uh, that was my story.
[00:15:36] Jenny Wood: Yeah.
[00:15:37] Kim Scott: So what was it about Google that like gave us like, and I reached out to him.
[00:15:41] Jenny Wood: Sure.
[00:15:41] Kim Scott: And he wouldn’t have reached out to me because I said, I was thirty-eight at the time. So I said, I wasn’t sure I wanted kids. ‘Cause I wasn’t sure that was in the cards for me.
[00:15:52] Jenny Wood: Yeah. It’s a great thought exercise. Um, I think Google helped me realize my value.
[00:15:59] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:15:59] Jenny Wood: Google helps me, but you know, it’s a tough place to, especially when we started Kim, right? I mean I started in 2006. You started?
[00:16:06] Kim Scott: In 2004.
[00:16:07] Jenny Wood: 2004. Okay. So it was in all the news segments, right? Like it was, you know, promoted as the top place to work and the hardest company to get into. So like if we made it, we probably, it probably gave us a little bit of a confidence boost that like we’ve got the goods, we’re bright, you know, we’re capable. And understanding your value and recognizing your value gives you the confidence to ask for what you want, gives you the confidence to ask somebody out, gives you the confidence to ask for a project or to ask your boss for a promotion or whatever it is.
[00:16:38] Kim Scott: And it also prompted, I think the thing for me that was good about Google is it, it allowed that weirdness. Like you were really allowed, you were encouraged to be weird and quirky as you wanted to be at Google.
[00:16:50] Jenny Wood: Totally.
[00:16:51] Kim Scott: You could really, um, do all kinds of, I remember thinking, this is the first place I worked where I feel like I can really be myself.
[00:16:59] Jenny Wood: Yeah.
[00:17:01] Amy Sandler: You know, it’s so interesting because Kim, you just recently shared something like that around how Google was like the first place you felt like you really belonged.
[00:17:09] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:17:09] Amy Sandler: And I was, we didn’t have a chance to kind of double click on that. So I was really curious what that looked like for you. And also Jenny, as you’re talking about sort of weird being one of the traits, like I’m aware that the organizations I was in did not, I did not feel safe kind of being weird and what that does to your own confidence, not just in the company, but sort of societally. So I’m just curious, like, ’cause you know, at the same time Kim was having that, I was kind of getting smaller in some ways. And so I’m just really curious, like what advice do you have for folks who may not be at a Google or just sort of feeling like they can express their weird, whatever that might be.
[00:17:51] Jenny Wood: I mean, to me, a success mindset must precede success itself. And when you feel like you can, it’s like the success and the ability to be yourself are tied, right? Because I actually feel like I can be much less weird now being an entrepreneur. This is the hardest year of my life, being, feeling like I haven’t, you know, it’s not only did I get into Google like we were talking about, and that gave me confidence. But then rising to executive there gave me confidence. I felt like I had the permission to ask for big things or ask for, you know, a million dollars for XYZ project or ask for headcount.
[00:18:24] And so, you know, my weirdness, I felt more confident in my ability to be weird or to, for example, because I did this once. When we were, when my team was putting our project forward for this big award, we made a music video as our entry, as opposed to just filling out the data in the spreadsheet. And I only felt Like I could be weird and do that because I was already at this senior level. So, and I now see that contrast, Amy, so I feel like I now am in the boat of the people who are at the companies that aren’t embracing the music video making or the go create any idea that comes to you or like, you know, bring purple hair to work or whatever your flavor purple hair is.
[00:18:59] Because I now feel as I’m newly starting out again, it’s very hard for me to ask for something or ask X, Y, Z, um, very impressive author or influencer for their help, or do something on LinkedIn where I post every day that feels different or unexpected. And so I think maybe it’s a, that’s why I say like a success mindset must proceed success itself. I felt successful at Google already and it enabled me to tap into my weird more. I don’t yet feel successful. Or at the quote unquote executive level of entrepreneurship or authorship that I now feel like I’m back to playing it safe again.
[00:19:33] And it’s, I’m doing such a disservice to my future business, but it is interesting that I fall right back into that. Like I sent out, you know, three hundred and fifty galleys of the book, advanced reader copies. And I need to follow up with every single one of them to say, would you like to buy Wild Courage in bulk? Would you like to bring me in as a keynote speaker or a workshop facilitator? Both things I love to do. And, you know, I sent out the first two hundred and fifty thinking, well, of course two hundred and fifty will respond immediately with a check half written and a date they’re ready to secure. And, um.
[00:20:03] Kim Scott: That’s not what happened.
[00:20:03] Jenny Wood: And that’s not what happened. And it has been so hard for me to send those last hundred, having the rejection of the first two hundred, not rejection, but like the ghosting or the non answers or the not nows of like some of them of the first two hundred and fifty.
[00:20:18] Kim Scott: You know, when I was, um, when Radical Candor, when I was two weeks out from Radical Candor’s pub date, uh, which was Friday.
[00:20:26] Amy Sandler: Oh, that’s fun. Great pub date.
[00:20:27] Kim Scott: Yeah, 3/14/17 or something. Isn’t that fun? Uh, anyway, I remember deciding that this was my, the time in my life when I was going to beg. That was my time.
[00:20:41] Jenny Wood: Totally.
[00:20:42] Kim Scott: And I just, like, I literally said that to myself, this is a time to beg.
[00:20:47] Jenny Wood: Yeah.
[00:20:47] Kim Scott: And I begged. I begged a lot of people.
[00:20:50] Jenny Wood: Yeah, and then I’m doing it, but it’s hard like.
[00:20:52] Kim Scott: Yeah, it’s really hard and not everybody, certainly there are plenty of people who did not invite me to speak or buy you right copies of the book.
[00:21:00] Jenny Wood: Right for sure.
[00:21:01] Kim Scott: It is, writing a book as a labor of love. And this book that you have written Wild Courage is going to help so many people be successful in their careers. But I want to go back to Amy’s question quickly, because I think what you said was really good, um, and I have an addition to it. Which is that, like, when I was in a job where I was literally shrinking. In fact, I physically shrank. My doctor said, you’ve lost half an inch. What is happening? And the best advice I got in that situation was don’t forget to quit. I mean, get out if you possibly can, which is what you did, Amy.
[00:21:38] Amy Sandler: Yeah. I mean, I definitely, um, I went to another place and, but it really wasn’t until I did go on my own and Jenny, so I really can understand that, that shift. And, you know, frankly, it hasn’t really been till working at Radical Candor where I felt like I can really sort of bring all the weird, um, bring your weird self to work. Um , and you know, I will just say like, and maybe part of it’s just a function of age. But I am convinced that the more authentic and weird that I can be, actually the more success there is. But it’s like, it’s been so wired to not have that mindset that it. Kind of that process you’re going through, Jenny, I can really relate to. You know, one of the things I think in your book, you talk about how to self promote with tactics that don’t necessarily feel like so awkward. So how do you bring together that kind of self promotion and weirdness in a way that folks can learn from?
[00:22:33] Jenny Wood: Yeah. Well, I think the first step is knowing your power assets. Like if I think of my power assets, which make up my power portfolio, right? Kind of like a financial investment portfolio. Um, mine are people leadership, influencing stakeholders and building things from startup to scale. I both want to put you on the spot, Amy, and I also don’t want to put you on the spot. Do you want to take the challenge of like, if you had to say what your three power assets were, would there be any that you could come up with? I’m trying to ask the question slowly to buy you time.
[00:23:05] Amy Sandler: No, this is, this is great. I mean, I’m actually going through the process right now because I recently recorded a TEDx Talk. It hasn’t yet come out. And so part of it is sort of what are those, you know, distinguishing features. I was actually going to ask you, ’cause you know, how did you actually discern those were your power assets? But I will say, you know, one of the things that I think is a power asset is what we do on the podcast, which I love, which is I’m super curious. And so I love listening and asking questions. So I think curiosity, uh, I would also say humor and just an ability to kind of see the lighter side of things. And then I think on the weird side, I mean, I’ve definitely been on the consciousness, like whatever woo woo path. So just very aware that, um, that we’re more connected than maybe we think and see. So less on spreadsheets and more on jumping after, uh, the subway car person.
[00:23:58] Kim Scott: Can I add a superpower that I think you have, Amy?
[00:24:00] Amy Sandler: Oh.
[00:24:01] Kim Scott: I also think you’re like one of the most empathetic people, kind people I’ve ever met. And that is really, uh, just a wonderful thing, especially in this. You’re flooding the zone with love. That is what we need to do right now.
[00:24:16] Amy Sandler: Oh, thank you.
[00:24:17] Jenny Wood: So like, that’s a great start is understanding your power assets that make up your power portfolio. Now this is a different context, right? Because this is, um, you know, Radical Candor has a mission of helping people be successful, like those are all the right things. If we were in a business context, I might push you to think a little bit more about the hard skills, right? Like, what are you doing to transform? Like, what are the metrics where you transform a user, right? Like a listener or you know, like someone came to me and said, so I always say like one to two hard skills and then one to two soft skills with a combination of three together.
[00:24:49] So if someone came to me and they said, you know, I, um, am a great collaborator when it comes to product launches, I might say, well, okay, position that. Sounds like collaborator sounds like really soft. Why don’t you think about positioning that as, um, a go to market strategist, right? Like that’s still about collaboration. That’s still about, um, you know, helping something get launched. But like go to market sounds like a very hard skill in terms of a product launch or something like that. Now that is not the context here, but this all gets back to tasteful self promotion. Well, actually I would call it shameless self promotion because I want to remove shame from the equation, equation.
[00:25:22] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:25:22] Jenny Wood: Nothing makes me cringe more than being in a meeting and somebody says, I have a shameless plug. But I just created this spreadsheet. It’s probably going to save you twenty minutes of time per project. I, this happened once and like everybody in the room was like, Oh my gosh, finally, someone created this spreadsheet that I can just like click a button and all the data is there for me. So like, where is the shame? Why does it need to be a shameless plug? Why can’t it be? I’m proud of this spreadsheet I created and I am excited for you to use it and save twenty minutes per project. So that’s like, you know, whether it’s knowing your power assets that make up your power portfolio and starting there and talking about those with your boss. Or every six months setting up time with your boss’s boss, which I highly recommend everybody. It’s like, you know, old news to manage up to me, the more counterintuitive thing is to meet your boss’s boss twice a year, like manage higher, right? Maybe manage diagonally.
[00:26:13] Think about an org chart. You’ve got your boss above you. You’ve got their peers to the right and left of them. And managing diagonally is building relationships with two or three of your boss’s seven peers. Not everybody because it’s, you know, gonna waste your time and theirs. But find a few who actually have influence, you know who they are, right? It might not be by their title, but you observe it every day. Find the ones that you like the best that you connect with, because it’s not worth wasting your life connecting with people who are a-holes, right? We all know this from Radical Candor. And then go meet them, right? So once you know your power assets, you’re then in a position to share those with your boss managing up. But that’s old news, manage higher, share them with your boss’s boss, manage diagonally, share them with your boss’s peers. And that’s the start.
[00:26:56] Kim Scott: And I think when you do that, it’s really helpful to think about this in terms of, you’re asking these people to invest in you because you’re a good investment. Uh, so they’re, they will get a good, what’s in it for them when you succeed, they will get a good return, whether it’s emotional or practical, right? And uh, you’re not trying to be political, you know, you’re asking people to invest in you. That’s not political.
[00:27:23] Jenny Wood: Yeah. And can I, since Kim, you push back on me on the book.
[00:27:27] Kim Scott: Alright, alright.
[00:27:27] Jenny Wood: Like I think that I mean, there is a section in the book called play politics, and I mean it in a good way. I mean it in a good way. And I understand, I totally understand where you’re coming from, where you’re saying, like, we’re not trying to get political. But I find that there’s nothing wrong with connecting with the people who have influence. And to me, that is kind of the base of politics. Like it is, I guess, politics, especially these days, oh my goodness, we’re not going to go down this rabbit hole.
[00:27:56] So politics is a very loaded word. But if you think about it at its core, and you think about it as building relationships with people who can give you good feedback, who can advance your agenda, who can give you fifteen minutes in their leadership meeting, who have the budget and the ability to green light your project, who have the power to say yes to something, you know, if you go to them for feedback ahead of the big meeting of nine people. And like, I think that sometimes it’s okay to understand how people tick and who holds the power and what you need to do ahead of the meeting to get their buy in, right? And you call that politics or not, but I think it’s just being smart and thoughtful about how relationships work and how influence works.
[00:28:39] Kim Scott: Yeah. And, I would say, and I think you’ll agree with this. Like it’s not because you’re trying to get an unfair advantage. It’s because you’re trying to do better work.
[00:28:48] Jenny Wood: Yes. And collaborate better and exchange ideas. And maybe you go to someone and you say, hey, I’m working on this ice cream project and know your team did an ice cream project recently. What can I learn from you? What can I add to your team that might save them time that might give them feedback that might give them ideas. Do we have seven people working on this when we only need four, should we collaborate together and make this more efficient? It’s for all of those reasons. It’s knowing what the right hand is doing, you know, knowing what the right and the left hand are doing. And here I’m talking about a context of like big, complex organizations that are multi, you know, have multi multiple touch points. And just it’s really kind of guarding against how siloed we can be.
[00:29:26] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:29:26] Jenny Wood: And if we live in fear, like, I don’t want to be a brown noser. So I don’t want to meet my boss’s boss, or I don’t want to look political. Right? So I don’t want to go build a relationship with that person. I think that holds so many people back when those relationships could increase the buy, increase the pie, increase the collaboration, increase the amount of excitement and energy and motivation. And improve the bottom line for the company.
[00:29:49] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s, uh, or for yourself, like, it’s okay to be, it’s okay to say, my goal here is to improve my skills and to do better work because I want to build these skills. Like there’s a company gets something out of it, but you also get something out of improving your skills for sure. There’s a world of difference between that and saying, I’m gonna brown nose so I get a promotion.
[00:30:10] Jenny Wood: Oh, definitely.
[00:30:11] Kim Scott: Which is, that’s not what you’re talking about. And I think you make that very clear in the book.
[00:30:15] Jenny Wood: Yeah, and also people see through that. Like, you’re not, we’re not kissing anybody’s butt here.
[00:30:19] Kim Scott: Oh, I don’t know that people see through that.
[00:30:22] Jenny Wood: Oh, really?
[00:30:22] Kim Scott: It works. That’s the problem with politics. So that’s why I think it’s important. It’s important to be aware of what’s going on.
[00:30:30] Jenny Wood: Sure.
[00:30:30] Kim Scott: Like some people who do not deserve it, get a promotion because they play politics.
[00:30:35] Jenny Wood: Absolutely.
[00:30:36] Kim Scott: Um, but that’s not what you’re encouraging people to do. You’re encouraging people to, uh, to make sure that it’s a little bit in Radical Respect, there was another Googler, Mecca. Do you know him?
[00:30:49] Jenny Wood: I don’t think so.
[00:30:50] Kim Scott: Anyway, he’s amazing. He has this notion of a difficulty anchor and he says, if you’re underrepresented along any dimension. And you’re on a project, there’s a greater risk that people will dismiss the importance of your project because you’re you. Oh, if Kim did it, it must be easy because she’s a woman.
[00:31:09] Jenny Wood: Sure.
[00:31:10] Kim Scott: And, uh, you know, or in Mecca’s case, if Mecca did it, it must be easy because he’s black. And it’s not that people say that explicitly, but that’s kind of what happens.
[00:31:20] Jenny Wood: So interesting.
[00:31:21] Kim Scott: Yes. And so he’s, he recommends finding someone in the organization who’s way more senior than you are. Who’s got a reputation as kind of a hard ass. And tell them what you’re trying to accomplish, get their feedback so that you’re more likely to succeed. And then when somebody says it was easy, this hard ass is going to say, oh no, that was not easy.
[00:31:43] Jenny Wood: Yeah.
[00:31:43] Kim Scott: That’s the kind of thing you’re talking about.
[00:31:45] Jenny Wood: Yeah, exactly.
[00:31:54] Amy Sandler: I really appreciate you bringing that example up, Kim, because I was really curious on the idea of getting rid of the shameless self promotion. But was coming up for me, certainly, you know, this group, all women, and then, you know, bringing in your example, Kim of, you know, underrepresented folks, people of color. Like I can just say for myself, I think part of the shame around self promotion is partly a societal norm of what that might look like and how that might be received. So not only is it maybe, you know, wanting to advance other people, but it’s also because of previous experiences where that has not been strategic, uh, benefit.
[00:32:33] Kim Scott: So you’ve gotten punished more for self promotion.
[00:32:36] Amy Sandler: We can obviously see that in, sorry to go back to politics. But we’re sort of a woman with ambition is not necessarily rewarded in the same way.
[00:32:43] Jenny Wood: Yeah. Well, I’m not saying this stuff is easy, folks.
[00:32:51] Amy Sandler: That’s why it takes wild courage.
[00:32:52] Jenny Wood: Exactly. Exactly. I mean, you’re, Amy, you’re talking about the double bind, right?
[00:32:56] Amy Sandler: Yeah.
[00:32:56] Jenny Wood: You’re talking about, at least for women, like women are, uh, you know, it’s like, we’re in this double bind of, if we want to be ambitious, we also have to like balance that with being kind and thoughtful and soft spoken and all these things that women are expected to be. And then you, you know, you look at the intersectionality of that, right? And you lay on other kind of, um, historically underrepresented groups in tech or in any industry. And it just gets super, super complicated. So yeah, I’ve definitely, and again, I feel it more in the entrepreneurial author world, which, totally feels like a boys club. I’m just going to, I’m just going to put it out there way more than I felt it at Google. Like I think Google, I did not realize or appreciate how incredible Google was at DEI and at women leadership until I left and was like, oh, wait a second.
[00:33:41] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:33:41] Jenny Wood: I mean, you look at the top twenty bestselling books on any given week and ain’t a lot of women in that group.
[00:33:49] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:33:49] Jenny Wood: Like you’re often there, Kim, but you know, it’s not, it’s really an anomaly. And I do, there are, I do feel like there are boys club circles that I have just not been invited into.
[00:34:00] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. So I think that part of it is, you know, often it’s these biases that help hold us back. So for example, Uh, women are not allowed to be funny. And so some women have said, should I try not to be funny? Because people will think I’m not serious. And I’m like, be fucking funny. I’m just going to drop that one.
[00:34:20] Jenny Wood: Yeah.
[00:34:20] Kim Scott: Uh, like don’t allow the punishments that you get these biases. ‘Cause you’re going to get punished every either, either way. Like Audre Lorde said, your silence will not protect you. So you may as well be funny and get punished then not be funny and get punished. You may as well self promote and get punished for that, then be a wallflower and get punished for that.
[00:34:46] Jenny Wood: Right. Because I think the punishment of being a wallflower is a guarantee. And I think, you know, at least when you’re speaking up in a meeting, when you, let’s say you’re the intern, right? And let’s say you are, you’ve read Wild Courage and you’re like, I’m going to go into this three month internship at this fancy company for the summer. And rather than just wearing the expected business casual attire and nodding along like a bobblehead in every meeting.
[00:35:09] I’m going to raise my hand and I’m going to come off of mute and I’m going to play it hot and say something that might, you know, respectfully disagree with the leader. You might that same afternoon get three high fives and three reprimands from three different people, but at least you’re memorable to me, that is weird. Like that is, you know, both getting nosy, getting nosy about what the reaction might be, right? Getting insatiably curious. And Amy, I love that you said that curiosity was one of your power assets. It’s being reckless. It’s erring on the side of action, right? And thinking fast and fearless. And if you’re on the fence as that intern, like, yes, I’m going to press unmute. I’m going to raise my hand. I’m going to say the thing. And it is also being weird. It’s being authentic and it’s standing out. Like playing it hot is a strategic commitment to not fit in in any given two minute conversation or one hour meeting. It’s a strategic commitment to not fit in.
[00:35:56] Strategic. Because at least at the end of that summer, that intern is remembered and therefore he or she is much more like, or they are much more likely to get asked back for the full time role. If you’re forgettable, then you will have that company’s resume on your, sorry, that company’s logo on your resume for the three month stint. But you’re much less likely to make enough of a splash that you actually do anything big in the world or at that company or get the big offers or get on the big projects. Because if you want to get promoted, get assigned to the projects that matter most for the company. You’re not going to get on them, leaders keep lists. Keep lists of maternity paternity backfills, keep lists of attrition, you know, uh, succession planning, keep lists of who to put on the big projects. If you’re not frequently, like, top of mind to people, which only comes from playing it hot, being weird, being shameless, being reckless, getting nosy, then you’re going to be forgotten. You’re going to get overlooked.
[00:36:51] Kim Scott: A hundred percent.
[00:36:52] Amy Sandler: Can we talk about something hard?
[00:36:54] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:36:55] Jenny Wood: Absolutely.
[00:36:56] Amy Sandler: You talk about embracing the power of no without feeling like a jerk. And so part of it’s like, there’s the action, but then there’s also like our own kind of emotional mindset about that.
[00:37:08] Jenny Wood: Yeah, yeah, there is. I am so excited we’re talking about this, Amy. This is like it is one of the most important.
[00:37:15] Amy Sandler: I mean, and you could have said no.
[00:37:16] Jenny Wood: I absolutely would not have said no, because first of all, I have, it’s extremely hard. I don’t think we have to talk about why it’s hard. A lot of us are people pleasers at our core, but people pleasing pleases no one, and it keeps you small. And so, no, you know, this is what I call brutal. It is the courage to protect your time and energy. And frankly, being brutal, saying no, is, it’s cleaner, it’s more effective, and it’s far kinder than like equivocating or the mealy mouth, you know, wind up to like eventually saying a maybe. It’s cutting through the bull and sparing everyone’s time and energy and attention. It’s essentially Radical Candor. It’s like, can you do this? No I can’t and here’s why. But now that we agree that there’s a baseline of it being helpful and productive because it allows you to really put your effort and energy into what matters most in the world. And it helps you not fragment your day into seventy thousand little mini bites, right? And allows you to do something meaningful and meaty. Let’s talk about how you do it? So I call this, let’s drink to async, okay?
[00:38:20] So this is if someone asks you to attend a meeting and you just don’t wanna do it. So let’s drink to async. Hey, I’d love to help. Can we start by collaborating on email, right? Like, let’s see how far that takes us and see if we need to pop on a call after that. That is saying no to the meeting, which is so, so helpful, right? We’ve also got the power postpone. This is tactic number two. And this sounds something like this, hey, I’m heads down on a project. Can we revisit this next week? Well, sometimes when we say that when we use the power postpone, it gets solved by somebody else. It goes away, right? And then we’ve got the agenda of avenger. This is tool number three. And this is, can you send me an agenda first? Because then it forces that person to think through, well, what is it that they want from you? Why do they want your time? A, again, it might be solved over email, but they might not have enough that they can come up with that warrants an hour of your time. So we all agree that no is critical, that is not a surprise. But I think the counterintuitive part is how do you do in a way that you don’t sound like a jerk? We do it with let’s drink to async. The power postpone and the agenda avenger. And can I add one that just happened before this call, before we started recording?
[00:39:29] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:39:29] Jenny Wood: Yeah. Okay. So I hired this illustrator. He’s awesome. His name is Ash Lamb. Shout out to Ash Lamb if anybody needs an illustrator. And he’s illustrating some images from my book and he, or some concepts from the book. And so I was looking at an illustration and it was two sections of the illustration, a top section and a bottom section, contrasting an idea. And me being, uh, obsessed, that is, the courage to set your own standard, and that’s like, really wanting to achieve excellence, and sometimes perfection in everything. Um, I said, hey, could we take this sentence, so here’s the top sentence, wild courage is temporary discomfort, and it’s a guy pushing a boulder up the hill, actually looking like, excited that like, he’s moving it forward. And playing it safe is permanent regret, and it’s a boulder, you know, chasing him down the hill because he doesn’t have the courage to push up the hill. And I said, hey, could we split the line into two lines instead of having it in one line? I thought it would look better stylistically. And he basically just wrote back, he said, let me see if I can find it. I tried that, but in all honesty, I think it will work better with the way I have it, it is also going to take me a lot more time to do that. It was a more complicated.
[00:40:38] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:40:38] Jenny Wood: Uh, change than what I’m describing. I think it’ll take me more time to do that, and I don’t think it’s worth it given my bandwidth.
[00:40:44] Kim Scott: That’s a no.
[00:40:45] Jenny Wood: That’s a no!
[00:40:46] Kim Scott: And not only that, that’s a never.
[00:40:48] Jenny Wood: That’s a never! That’s, that is not a power postpone. That is not, Jenny, give me the agenda of why you think this matters. Like, that’s just like a no, I’m not doing it. And guess what? I respect him more for it. And it tells me that his time is valuable, and it benefits him in additional ways beyond this little adjustment for this illustration, because now, I’ll be more thoughtful next time I ask for a minor tweak, knowing that like, oh, he doesn’t have endless time. He values his time.
[00:41:15] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:41:15] Amy Sandler: Can I give you a name for that? You can say no. It’s called the Sisyphus no.
[00:41:20] Jenny Wood: There you go. I love it. The Sisyphus no. You heard it here first, folks.
[00:41:24] Amy Sandler: That’s right. That’s my gift to you.
[00:41:26] Kim Scott: It’s a, and it’s a good one. It is, you know, this may be my favorite part of your book because when I lived in Russia. And Moscow in 1990, my nickname, I was right out of college and my nickname was Gaspazhada, which means Miss Yes.
[00:41:44] Jenny Wood: I remember that.
[00:41:45] Kim Scott: I said no. I mean, I said yes to everything, everything, everything. And I realized how burnt out I was a couple of years later. There was a New Yorker cartoon. And there was this guy on the phone, and he was saying, nope, Thursday’s out. How about never? Is never good for you?
[00:42:03] Jenny Wood: Oh my gosh!
[00:42:05] Kim Scott: That was my favorite cartoon.
[00:42:07] Jenny Wood: I mean, how common is it that you start, uh, that you start reading, saying a caption of a New Yorker cartoon, and somebody like I just couldn’t finish the caption for you. That is the best New Yorker caption that has ever been written in the entire history of the New Yorker magazine.
[00:42:24] Kim Scott: I agree. I agree.
[00:42:25] Amy Sandler: I love that one. Can I give you another one, Kim? You might like this for the Radical Candor story. There’s a dog saying to either the therapist or another dog. It’s always good dog. It’s never great dog.
[00:42:36] Jenny Wood: I love that. I love that.
[00:42:40] Amy Sandler: How about never? No, I love that. I love that story. And actually, Jenny, just to kind of bring it back to your, you know, wanting to, you know, promote and getting the meeting with your boss’s boss.
[00:42:50] Jenny Wood: Yeah.
[00:42:51] Amy Sandler: To me, like, how would you feel if it was the boss’s boss saying to you, come bring me an agenda. ‘Cause then that would give you the opportunity to get clear. Like just if the shoe is on the other foot, um, how would that land for you?
[00:43:03] Jenny Wood: Oh, it would land great because it would tell me they’re invested. It would tell me that they care about this meeting. It would tell me that they’re valuing, that they like deeply want to help me. And I would read that as a signal that they can help me more if they’re focused. It would tell me, wow, they might do some prep out of this call. Wow, I was only expecting twenty minutes of their time. I think I’m going to get 25. If I send them questions ahead of time, they’re going to spend five minutes thinking about it. It would honor me, Amy. It would honor me. And by the way, there’s a flip side here that would fit into the bossy trait, which is steering others to success. It’s the courage to listen and lead.
[00:43:36] And that is when you, um, you know, you make it, you lower the barrier to people coming to you. So like in that case, you’re kind of creating a barrier and you’re saying like, no, I want to say no to this. So I’m going to make you give me an agenda first. But, um, but there’s a flip side here when you’re the leader. Because when you’re the leader, you want to lower the barrier to people coming to you because you want to be a boss with like an open door policy and you want to be there and available for them. So I would do office hours as a leader at Google every Tuesday, ten to eleven AM, three twenty minute slots. And in the calendar invite that was on my entire orgs calendar as a reminder, I would actually do the agenda for them. So it was the opposite. I said, don’t worry about some fancy thirty slide deck. You could come bring me, you know, here’s what you could talk about in this meeting with me.
[00:44:23] It might be a project you’re excited about. Something, keeping you up at night, a skill you want to develop a strength you’re proud of. Heck, even just what you did on the weekend. So in that case, it’s the action. It’s the opposite effect as a leader. I want to encourage them that it is not something that you have to do a lot of work around to, you know, set up time with me. So, Amy, if that boss said to me, what’s your agenda? I’d be excited to do it, but you’re right, I might feel a little bit intimidated. So, as the boss, I try to help people overcome that intimidation right from the get go, and that imposter syndrome right from the get go, and actually lower the barrier to entry of setting up time with me.
[00:44:57] Kim Scott: But Jenny, knowing you, you would, when you sent the email, tell them exactly what you wanted to talk about. Because you’re very, you’re, one of the many things that I love about you is how respectful you are of other people’s time. Like, when I, when you first reached out to me, I was like, oh, here’s a woman who gets shit done, uh, and it was like a breath of fresh air. I felt relaxed in your presence because you were on it, uh, and I think that you teach people in your book how to do that.
[00:45:27] Jenny Wood: Yeah, well that’s a tool. It’s in the obsessed trait and I call that pull it and bullet. If your emails to important stakeholders. You’re laughing at me.
[00:45:36] Amy Sandler: I’m laughing.
[00:45:37] Kim Scott: I love it. These are such good.
[00:45:41] Jenny Wood: I did a keynote. I did a keynote in front of like two hundred and fifty people in DC on Friday. And I walked the room after where I like, you know, worked the room. ‘Cause I think there could be more deals that come from it. Um, and I was like, Hey, if I changed this keynote from forty-five minutes to thirty minutes, what would you recommend I absolutely don’t cut. It’s a creative way to say, what do you like best, right?
[00:46:00] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:46:01] Jenny Wood: But I love data. And the number one thing people said was, do not cut the section with the four tools at the end. So I think you’re laughing at me here, because like you asked a question, and I give a tool as an answer, but like, I think people want stuff that’s practical. And that’s not just like ivory tower theory. Okay, so the tool here is pull it and bullet. If your email’s to important stakeholders or to your boss or to your boss’s boss, are just full of long prose filled paragraphs.
[00:46:28] Kim Scott: They’re not going to read it.
[00:46:29] Jenny Wood: They’re not going to read it. And so what I attempt to do, like when I reached out to you, which very much intimidated me, Kim, when I reached out to you. I literally had written on a document on a flight home from Chicago when I was thinking about goals. It was, I want to meet Kim Scott one day. Like I wrote that down. I could take a screenshot and show it to you. Like that was a bonafide goal of that year. And here we are, you’ve been like the most incredible mentor to me. Your name is on the cover of the book. Like Kim Scott, your name is on the cover of my book with a quote that says you’re candid career coach for unstoppable growth, Kim Scott, New York times bestselling author of Radical Candor. I did not expect that. Okay. Wow. Talk about a tangent. So, um,
[00:47:10] Amy Sandler: No, it’s actually perfect. ‘Cause right next to the book you have, if cauliflower can be pizza, you can be anything. So just going back to that success mindset, like you made, like making that happen.
[00:47:21] Jenny Wood: Right.
[00:47:21] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:47:21] Jenny Wood: Exactly. So you were impressed with my first email. It’s because I used the pull it and bullet method rather than writing in long, clunky paragraphs. I probably, knowing me, sent you three bullets.
[00:47:32] Kim Scott: Oh, yes. I love it.
[00:47:33] Jenny Wood: Eighty percent pull it is pull out fifty percent of the text. And bullet is write in bullets instead of paragraphs. I probably had three bullets, three things I wanted to learn from you. I probably bolded the first few words of each bullet. I probably did not have any bullet exceed one line of text, which looks very intentional and very thoughtful and very, um, buttoned up. And that’s what I did.
[00:47:51] Kim Scott: Yes, yes.
[00:47:52] Jenny Wood: Pull it and bullet. Pull fifty percent, write in bullets, not prose.
[00:47:55] Kim Scott: I knew that you were a woman who was not going to waste a minute of my time. And I love that, right? That makes me, nothing makes me feel more relaxed than, uh, being acknowledged.
[00:48:05] Amy Sandler: Well, speaking of relaxed and time, uh, I feel like we should respect your time, Jenny. I know it’s a busy time for you. I certainly want to respect Kim’s time. So before we wrap, uh, is there anything that you want our listeners to know we haven’t asked? And I know they want to know, how can they find you? How can they get the book?
[00:48:24] Jenny Wood: Yeah, well, the book is available anywhere books are sold in hardcover, audio book, ebook, and ladies and gentlemen, I’m about to get shameless. If you are indifferent to how you consume a book, audio book versus, you know, paper copy, buy the hardcover. It helps authors so much during week one. It’s actually all that counts for bestseller lists. So I’m getting shameless. I’m asking you to buy the hardcover. If you’re indifferent.
[00:48:50] Kim Scott: Buy ten copies of the hard copy.
[00:48:52] Amy Sandler: Is there a URL that you want them to go to or wherever they buy their books?
[00:48:56] Jenny Wood: Honestly, like wherever they buy their books, Amazon, you know, uh, Books a Million, uh, they can go to wildcouragebook.com, but that’ll just give you other options to buy it. And then I love coming to companies and helping out with keynotes or, you know, consulting or workshop facilitation. And you can just email me, Jenny@ItsJennyWood.com. J E N N Y @ I TS J E N N Y.com. I also have a newsletter that comes out every Tuesday. It’s so short. It’s like under a two minute read. It’s all these practical tools that I’ve been sharing.
[00:49:26] Kim Scott: She pulled it and bulleted it.
[00:49:28] Amy Sandler: She pulled it and bulleted it.
[00:49:30] Jenny Wood: That’s ItsJennyWood.com/newsletter.
[00:49:33] Kim Scott: Awesome. Thank you so much, Jenny. Loved the conversation.
[00:49:36] Jenny Wood: So fun. You two are just top notch and I’m so honored to be here.
[00:49:41] Amy Sandler: Well, we love to have you. And if you want to check out the show notes, folks, go to RadicalCandor.com/podcast. As we like to say, praise in public, criticize in private. So if you like what you hear, please do rate and review us on Apple podcast. And if you’ve got criticism, you know, we always love to hear that email it podcast@radicalcandor.com. Go order Jenny’s book, Wild Courage, wherever you want to find your books. Remember, pull it and bullet it. Did I get it right, Jenny?
[00:50:12] Jenny Wood: You did. Pull it and bullet.
[00:50:13] Amy Sandler: All right. Pull it and bullet. Bye for now.
[00:50:16] Kim Scott: Take care, everybody.
[00:50:17] Amy Sandler: The Radical Candor Podcast is based on the book Radical Candor: Be a Kick Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity by Kim Scott. Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by me, Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by me, still Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer. The Radical Candor podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow us on LinkedIn, Radical Candor the company, and visit us at RadicalCandor.com.
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Episodes are written and produced by Brandi Neal with script editing by Amy Sandler. The show features Radical Candor co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rosoff and is hosted by Amy Sandler. Nick Carissimi is our audio engineer.
The Radical Candor Podcast theme music was composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Order his book: The Reason For The Rhymes: Mastering the Seven Essential Skills of Innovation by Learning to Write Songs.
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